Following the opening of the exhibition The Intelligence of Matter (Umbertide, Italy August 2015) this following illustrated exchange between Mirco Contenti and myself was posted on the GREFTI.COM website.
A CHAT WITH ROBIN SEWELL - PART ONE
"ALL FINE ARTISTS HAVE TO BE EXPERIMENTERS BY DEFINITION”
Mirco: You say you are not exactly a painter, and I totally agree that define you a painter would be quite simplistic. There are a lot of definitions that can come to mind thinking about your work, but none of these, on its own, would be comprehensive.
One of these definitions that I find particularly interesting is "experimenter".
Your work style has some similarities with the experimenter work style. Somehow we could say that, as an experimenter, you create "the environment" placing the reagents (disposing the dust on the wooden panels, building the machines, preparing the paints etc.), then you start the process/the experiment (starting to move and use your machines, generating vibrations etc. etc.) and at the end you record data (fixing the results on the wooden panels). Just at this point you draw your conclusions (giving a title to the paint).
I don't know if you've ever thought about yourself this way before, but this is how it looked in my eyes. What you think about this reconstruction of your work? Does it fit you?
This narration makes you look more like a scientist then an artist, is this a bad or good thing for you?
My position is that, if there are any differences between artists and experimenters, they're not that big like they can look at first sight, what you think?
One of these definitions that I find particularly interesting is "experimenter".
Your work style has some similarities with the experimenter work style. Somehow we could say that, as an experimenter, you create "the environment" placing the reagents (disposing the dust on the wooden panels, building the machines, preparing the paints etc.), then you start the process/the experiment (starting to move and use your machines, generating vibrations etc. etc.) and at the end you record data (fixing the results on the wooden panels). Just at this point you draw your conclusions (giving a title to the paint).
I don't know if you've ever thought about yourself this way before, but this is how it looked in my eyes. What you think about this reconstruction of your work? Does it fit you?
This narration makes you look more like a scientist then an artist, is this a bad or good thing for you?
My position is that, if there are any differences between artists and experimenters, they're not that big like they can look at first sight, what you think?
Robin: I see Fine Art to be akin to pure mathematics and pure physics, for all three fields strive to extend the boundaries of their subject. Fine Art extends the boundaries of visual phenomenon (and today many other fields of human enquiry). In this respect Fine Art is nearer to these ventures, because of its intent. The Applied Arts (illustration, graphic art, product design and more) function is to maintain, inform and decorate the world and in their way are similar to applied mathematics and physics that help the world go about its daily business. Having said that these fields also deliver new vistas and can also be truly creative.
Experimenter? Yes its a good word for me but if it is truly a fine art practice and not just showing what has already been seen and made before, then all fine artists have to be experimenters by definition. However, I know what you mean by this as it takes a specific aptitude to constantly invent and hence devise new means by which I can go forward. I develop machines to allow an experiment to unfold and thereby have a chance to journey into what is currently unseen, uncharted. Employing many different techniques, each takes its turn to further the journey that the previous materials and actions have undertaken. During this cumulative series of actions I am waiting to recognize something that I haven’t seen before. Paintings may arrive in a place similar to the resting point of another work and so I move on.
After a lifetime of teaching students I now find myself in Umbria and I have become my last student. So I tell myself what I told them and that is to challenge the boundaries of our understanding and find new ways forward. Within the time that this current new life affords me I can push the envelope of what is possible and challenge my practice as an artist. Before moving my studio to Italy in 2012 my life was very pressurized and full of other commitments but now I have physical and mental space to practice as an artist.
Experimenter? Yes its a good word for me but if it is truly a fine art practice and not just showing what has already been seen and made before, then all fine artists have to be experimenters by definition. However, I know what you mean by this as it takes a specific aptitude to constantly invent and hence devise new means by which I can go forward. I develop machines to allow an experiment to unfold and thereby have a chance to journey into what is currently unseen, uncharted. Employing many different techniques, each takes its turn to further the journey that the previous materials and actions have undertaken. During this cumulative series of actions I am waiting to recognize something that I haven’t seen before. Paintings may arrive in a place similar to the resting point of another work and so I move on.
After a lifetime of teaching students I now find myself in Umbria and I have become my last student. So I tell myself what I told them and that is to challenge the boundaries of our understanding and find new ways forward. Within the time that this current new life affords me I can push the envelope of what is possible and challenge my practice as an artist. Before moving my studio to Italy in 2012 my life was very pressurized and full of other commitments but now I have physical and mental space to practice as an artist.
In some respects my painting machines are no different from the invention of the paintbrush. Somewhere back before the dawn of our history, I imagine a person using a finger and stick to apply paint to a cave wall. The stick becomes frayed at the rubbed end thereby making the first brush. This little device allowed more paint to be applied and then they also realized that it lends a certain quality that is not a finger/paint mark but a brush mark. In doing so the brush and the paint are controlling the aesthetic of each mark. The paint interacts with this new device and the undulating wall.
So no, I do not see myself as a scientist but rather an artist with affiliations and connections with all creative people whatever field they are working in. To summarize, all persons extending the parameters of their field of research are being creative, as to be creative is to engage with and discover the uncharted either personally or for all mankind.
I look across the whole vista of creative human endeavour and absorb influences from far and wide. I spend many days a year fishing and looking at the surface of water, walking in the Umbrian hills and watching the sky. Then there are the art exhibitions, music, books, influences of friends and overwhelming stream of material poured at us by our technologically driven culture.
Since I have been living in the countryside instead of a city, I have become fascinated with notions surrounding duration, from implausible geological time through to our equally challenged perception of the incredibly brief actions of micro organisms and all the intervening time divisions between them. I try to make some sense of the remarkable world in which we live in via my art practice; in my studio I steady the world for myself.
So no, I do not see myself as a scientist but rather an artist with affiliations and connections with all creative people whatever field they are working in. To summarize, all persons extending the parameters of their field of research are being creative, as to be creative is to engage with and discover the uncharted either personally or for all mankind.
I look across the whole vista of creative human endeavour and absorb influences from far and wide. I spend many days a year fishing and looking at the surface of water, walking in the Umbrian hills and watching the sky. Then there are the art exhibitions, music, books, influences of friends and overwhelming stream of material poured at us by our technologically driven culture.
Since I have been living in the countryside instead of a city, I have become fascinated with notions surrounding duration, from implausible geological time through to our equally challenged perception of the incredibly brief actions of micro organisms and all the intervening time divisions between them. I try to make some sense of the remarkable world in which we live in via my art practice; in my studio I steady the world for myself.
A CHAT WITH ROBIN SEWELL - PART TWO
"I OFTEN FEEL THAT I AM LIKE A CHOREOGRAPHER DANCING AND PERFORMING WITH MERCURIAL SUBSTANCES"
Mirco: The first question, about art interacting with science, brings me to the next question. Another definition that comes in my mind when I look at your works is "liminal dancer", so first of all let me explain you what I mean with that.
Limen / limes is a Latin word, which meaning can be quite different from case to case: from threshold, limit, entry, border, home, up to goal. The idea that unites all of these terms is the presence of a line of demarcation which establishes a relationship of inclusion / exclusion between the elements that are inner or outer. The notion of limen is an ancient concept that in mythology has many references and that's an evidence of its strategic importance.
The mere presence of a threshold is important, symbolically and physically: the decisions you make about it have meanings and values that change from culture to culture. But in any cultural universe you can choose between three actions: stand still, deciding not to go beyond it; advance by choosing to overcome it; or you can opt for a no choice: to dance on the threshold and see what happens. The last solution is the one I’m thinking about when I call you a "liminal dancer".
Living on the limen is quite hard and dangerous but, if you play it good, it can makes you discover and see a lot of things that other people would never found. I think there are many things that can only born and grow in this space; only where many different things interact something new can born.
I think that now you can understand why your work was so perfect to represent our Gallery (and why I’m so excited for your exhibition and this interview). Grefti means "grafts", and this is exactly what we're trying to do, make interact different things and see what comes out.
Ops, sorry, in the end I didn't any specific question to you... But I’m quite sure you've something to say about this topic, just make your "dance".
Limen / limes is a Latin word, which meaning can be quite different from case to case: from threshold, limit, entry, border, home, up to goal. The idea that unites all of these terms is the presence of a line of demarcation which establishes a relationship of inclusion / exclusion between the elements that are inner or outer. The notion of limen is an ancient concept that in mythology has many references and that's an evidence of its strategic importance.
The mere presence of a threshold is important, symbolically and physically: the decisions you make about it have meanings and values that change from culture to culture. But in any cultural universe you can choose between three actions: stand still, deciding not to go beyond it; advance by choosing to overcome it; or you can opt for a no choice: to dance on the threshold and see what happens. The last solution is the one I’m thinking about when I call you a "liminal dancer".
Living on the limen is quite hard and dangerous but, if you play it good, it can makes you discover and see a lot of things that other people would never found. I think there are many things that can only born and grow in this space; only where many different things interact something new can born.
I think that now you can understand why your work was so perfect to represent our Gallery (and why I’m so excited for your exhibition and this interview). Grefti means "grafts", and this is exactly what we're trying to do, make interact different things and see what comes out.
Ops, sorry, in the end I didn't any specific question to you... But I’m quite sure you've something to say about this topic, just make your "dance".
| Robin: Liminal Dancer is a wonderful description of how I think of myself interacting with matter. I would be glad to have that as my name within my studio practice and it would be very amusing as an occupation on my passport at immigration. I often feel that I am like a choreographer dancing and performing with mercurial substances. I can imagine a public performance with the devices and paint, powders etc. |  |
However, I must not underestimate the degree that I concentrate in the sanctity of my studio, to use a modern phrase, ‘being in the zone’, a kind of Zen like meditative state, which at its best allows me huge powers of connectedness and abilities to perform.
 | These are the times when all the thinking and pondering leave the room. I can be totally immersed in the activity. Ones ordinary self is repressed by another state of being that takes over. I suppose at these rare times I become just matter myself and the divisions between the Liminal Dancer and the matter of the art work become blurred. This is a state where I can draw from my whole experience without being restricted by a list of directives or desires swimming around my head, as these would block the fluid interplay. What I am saying I suppose, is that the Liminal Dancer only exists in these heightened connected times and then I fall back to earth and decide to go and have a cup of tea, returning my brain and body to the everyday world. The studio practice brings forth every sort of human emotion in me. There may be a state with in a painting involving a visual ecstasy, a sublime state of perfection, and at another time I am toiling with paint as if I were in the heat of a bloody battle. So the Liminal Dancer can be taken, by the journey of the painting, to all places of human imagination, some are beautiful and serene while others go to dark places that haunt the mind. |
However, much of what I do in the studio is not like this and involves much more conscious strategic manoeuvres. These are solving logic-based problems, or simple decisions that require careful consideration. For example, a colour to be sprayed may radically change 70% of the colours in the painting and choosing this colour sometime requires much logical deliberation.
A CHAT WITH ROBIN SEWELL - PART THREE
"THERE IS A DISCUSSION BETWEEN THE DUST AND MYSELF"
Mirco: The last question will be about the relation between the ‘act of thinking’ and the matter. I would like to start analysing the title of your exhibition: The Intelligence of Matter. The starting point it's clear: matter has an intelligence. But what that means? I'm quite sure you don't want to say that matter haves a conscious thought, but contrariwise that mechanical laws of universe act following a "logic", an intelligence, and that's the intelligence of matter.
It looks like you want to say that matter has its own will. Is that correct? And if something has a will, it follows logically that it can perform actions. So we can say there's a will of matter and a will of ‘thought’ (when I talk about thought I mean always conscious thought). Will you agree with me that there's a fight (most of the times) between matter and thought? And saying that the matter has its own intelligence, are you lining up on the side of the matter? Because if matter has its own intelligence, maybe it can self govern, without the supervision (most of times the totally domination) of the human thought.
This kind of reasoning can lead to something like ‘if you leave everything (humans included) free and let all things follows their natural character, everything would fix alone’, what's your position about that? Is it correct to say that your work investigates this kind of problems?
It looks like you want to say that matter has its own will. Is that correct? And if something has a will, it follows logically that it can perform actions. So we can say there's a will of matter and a will of ‘thought’ (when I talk about thought I mean always conscious thought). Will you agree with me that there's a fight (most of the times) between matter and thought? And saying that the matter has its own intelligence, are you lining up on the side of the matter? Because if matter has its own intelligence, maybe it can self govern, without the supervision (most of times the totally domination) of the human thought.
This kind of reasoning can lead to something like ‘if you leave everything (humans included) free and let all things follows their natural character, everything would fix alone’, what's your position about that? Is it correct to say that your work investigates this kind of problems?
Robin: Of course I do not believe that matter has an intelligence as we have but it does have a behavioural nature that moves within the realms of logic. Matter has a kind of will and personality that knows what it wants to do with itself. Matter has a specific character and nature of operation locked into it at a molecular level. To make anything we are applying forces and energy to interact with these molecular constructions.
‘A fight between matter and thought’ is an interesting notion. I think that this has been talked about during the answer to your second question but would say that it is a union and not a fight. The fight in the working practice is the journey of the painting at hand and sometimes the places we go together are strange and difficult. Sometimes the place is so peculiar and unfamiliar but still not where I sense I wish to end the journey and so I have to find a way out of there. Sometimes this demands a violent wrecking of the surface, as I need to force my way free of the restraints that I have arrived at within the painting.
So there can be struggle but it is not against matter as matter is my ally. It’s an interplay with matter where I try not to be dominant and I hope that the matter does not overwhelm me either. It’s a kind of marriage where one goes forward with give and take. And no, the materials do not dominate, I do not feel as if I am slave to the processes and so it follows that the processes are not simply demonstrating the nature of the materials. Even in the beginning of a work with the dry powder there is a discussion between the dust and myself. I touch it and draw and it responds and shows me what it is capable of via cymatic action. It is like a conversation.
‘A fight between matter and thought’ is an interesting notion. I think that this has been talked about during the answer to your second question but would say that it is a union and not a fight. The fight in the working practice is the journey of the painting at hand and sometimes the places we go together are strange and difficult. Sometimes the place is so peculiar and unfamiliar but still not where I sense I wish to end the journey and so I have to find a way out of there. Sometimes this demands a violent wrecking of the surface, as I need to force my way free of the restraints that I have arrived at within the painting.
So there can be struggle but it is not against matter as matter is my ally. It’s an interplay with matter where I try not to be dominant and I hope that the matter does not overwhelm me either. It’s a kind of marriage where one goes forward with give and take. And no, the materials do not dominate, I do not feel as if I am slave to the processes and so it follows that the processes are not simply demonstrating the nature of the materials. Even in the beginning of a work with the dry powder there is a discussion between the dust and myself. I touch it and draw and it responds and shows me what it is capable of via cymatic action. It is like a conversation.
In the end I am a painter and make images, which I hope will communicate with others, an audience to make connections with. For example, the nature of cymatics can lead a viewer to thinking that the painting is in some way familiar, that they have already experienced some fundamental elements of the image.
And so they have, as similar phenomena controls particles into forms across bodies of water, sands and in the sky. While searching for the extraordinary I am also aware that I am dealing with universal elements. This sounds very grand but on the other hand these universal elements are with us on a day-to-day basis and therefore commonplace. I wish that my paintings operate for the viewer on many levels and allow for different degrees of penetration, understanding and enjoyment.
And so they have, as similar phenomena controls particles into forms across bodies of water, sands and in the sky. While searching for the extraordinary I am also aware that I am dealing with universal elements. This sounds very grand but on the other hand these universal elements are with us on a day-to-day basis and therefore commonplace. I wish that my paintings operate for the viewer on many levels and allow for different degrees of penetration, understanding and enjoyment.
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